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Alright. Last time, we brought the hate, some of us with more gusto than others. We wanted to make Gabriel proud, but he repaid us by fucking finding Jesus on a mescaline trip in the desert. Cough*bullshit*cough.


The main thing I discovered in our last episode is that many of you are hating on a number from With Teeth that I really love: "The Collector". What gives, people? That's a good one! Don't you like when Trent says he's a good boy and he'll swallow it all? Geez!

Let's have another try at making Gabriel proud, and open up the can of worms that has so often been spewed without end all across the ninternet. Here are the official WTC rules: based on the content of Trent Reznor's work, is it your theory that he does or does not believe in God? You must make some attempt to justify your opinion with details from the Reznor oeuvre. I take his oeuvre to include anything he does, or says, in public; so interviews count.

So, to be clear, here's this week's question: what are your thoughts on Trent "hotpants" Reznor's spiritual modus operandi, and why do you think that? It's a two-parter, like always.

Bring it. And, people? Let's fight.

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One cannot feel angry at being fucked over by a deity one does not believe truly exists.

Ergo, Terrible Lie = Trent Reznor believes in The Lord.

Oh, and "The Collector" does blow. Him trying to be shocking by throwing in some dick sucking imagery just shows that he was watching porn on Tuesday Lyric Writing Day.

Posted by: Gabriel | Aug 30, 2005 9:02:57 AM

Hmmm...I don't mind "Collector," but it's a bit superfluous. Because you already have "You Know What You Are" to rock out to after the pseudo-gospel-techno "All the Love in the World."

Lyrically, Collector isn't the strongest...kind of revisits those "rehab/deflation of rock star ego" themes...but I do like Trent assuring me that he would be a good boy.

I'm pretty sure Trent's a believer in God, but my guess is that he doesn't do organized religion. He might believe in a higher power (I think he's said something like that in an interview), but I don't see anything to suggest that he's all about m.c.j.c. Ditto Gabriel's sentiments on "Terrible Lie." You don't get pissed off at something you don't believe exists. I think when he wants to be a hard-ass, he says something like, "I believe in God, but question His relevance" (paraphrased from faint memory)

The one quote that really stands out for me at the moment is one where he was talking about Johnny Cash's version of "Hurt," he said the following:

"And it came at a very insecure time in my life and it felt like a nudge and boost and a hug from God. It said 'everything's OK and the world is bigger than what's just in my head."

So yeah, I think he believes, but he's not all in our faces about it. Which is nice.

Posted by: maise | Aug 30, 2005 9:16:27 AM

P.S. Please don't ride me for describing "All the Love in the World" as pseudo-gospel-techno...it's the best I can do to describe this genre-less song while I'm frazzled at work...

Posted by: maise | Aug 30, 2005 9:20:48 AM

Nicely done, Maise.

So to all you readers that like to casually dis out Lord because you think it's clever and oh-so-bohemian, I'd like to take a quote from Dierdre, when I say: SUCK IT.

And swallow it all while you're at it.

Posted by: Gabriel | Aug 30, 2005 9:49:15 AM

Oh Goody Goody, it's fight time.

I can do some fighting..why not.

Firstly, I don't hate the Collector...lyrically, I kind of like the way it begins about having a net that drags behind, collecting everything, and feeding of others (pharaphrased big time). As for being a good boy & swallowing it all. Kind of actually makes me thinking of taking some really bad tasting liquid medicine, but I can accept the swallow spunk idea. Anyhow, when I hear the being a good boy part..makes me wanna dare him to be bad so I can bend him over ..and spank his cute ass..maybe playfully bite it as well. Sorry..I'm digressing..thinking about having my mits on Trents fine ass.

Now, the whole God thing...I think yes, he believes in some higher power/God, but is at odds with God. I can relate. Of course Terrible Lie is the biggest evidence of this. At the "Sick Among The Pure", there was a dissertation on The Downward Spiral back in 2002 (can be found in the archives) that would back the idea also (and was really quite well written).

As for MCJC & Trent..don't know what he thinks about this particular aspect..I'd actually love to sit down & have a conversation with him about it, because of how I perceive his idea & reaction towards "God". I feel a connection with him on that one.

Regardless, I would doubt that he considers himself a Christian...or would subscribe to an organized religion.

my 2 cents,

Posted by: bex | Aug 30, 2005 10:34:53 AM

My honest opinion: I don't care if he believes in a god or doesn't. Trent is still Trent, either way it goes.

Posted by: Kim | Aug 30, 2005 11:26:29 AM

Okay, Kim, you may not care... but what is your big picture evalutation of the religious themes in Trent's work?

Come on -- dig a little deeper. Apathy is so 1991.

Posted by: Gabriel | Aug 30, 2005 12:35:33 PM

Maise stole part of my answer. (Good to see we both have minds like steel traps when it comes to past Trent interviews.)

I think he does believe in God, but more than that he believes in himself.

A quote pertaining to Mr. Reznor's spirituality (circa '99): "I'm still anti-organized religion. I still think that's a crock of shit. But in my head, that spilled over into an utter chaos outlook: 'I don't need anything, I don't need anyone, and I don't need to believe there's any reason to anything.' It was a pretty self-centered approach. I was lonely and has a bleak outlook on everything. I think people have an inherent need for belonging, to feel they are a part of something."

And another, my favorite pertaining to the subject (also circa '99): "...my heart is rooted in emotion, and my soul is rooted in my innate knoledge of right and wrong – my truest core. This is the bottom, the foundation for me."

(Just as an aside: the lyric "Nothing ever grows and the sun doesn't shine all day" has always reminded me of the Demeter/Persephone myth. After Persephone was spirited away to the Underworld by Hades to be his wife, Demeter [goddess of harvests and all growing things] let the earth go barren in her grief for her lost daughter. I'm not insinuating anything, I'm just sharing.)

Two quotes from '99 and a mini-discussion about a lyric from "Into the Void"? Man, I love The Fragile.

If anyone wants to go toe-to-toe with me on this, I'll take you on later. I just gave blood and I need a nap.

Posted by: emerald527 | Aug 30, 2005 1:40:10 PM

Gabe, it's not apathy, it's being open-minded and tolerant. When I say I don't care whether he's religious or not, it's because I'm tolerant of other's opinions, beliefs, and ideas - not because I'm apathetic to them. Because of this, I don't want to dig deeper. Whether he is or is not religious won't make any difference to me, therefore I don't see the need to speculate.

Posted by: Kim | Aug 30, 2005 1:53:18 PM

i'm sorry, dierdre.

i'm posting an inappropriate comment in the wrong place.

what the fuck?

what the fuck?!!

so i spend a month in australia, sans internet access, and this is what i return to?

what the fuck???!!!!!

what happened? is this gabriel/mel gibson thing true?

i'm truly sorry. that banner is embarassing.

i wish gabriel the best in his quest back to reality.

i love you, diredre.


Posted by: denise | Aug 30, 2005 2:07:05 PM

Hi Denise...I may have joined up while you were on your trek through the Outback or other Australian locale.

I know recent developments are disconcerting...just don't start talking about donuts, and everything will be all right...

Posted by: maise | Aug 30, 2005 2:35:40 PM

goodness me...i am so busy studying medication dosages, I've missed so much!

I think TR has always believed in God, but I think he may have come a lot closer to him after the whole drug meltdown. I read in an interview (I'll find it) where he talked about how when he started to do the first couple of shows this year, he would pray that he could do it. I think that's what it was. I'll find the interview this evening, but it's time for me to read some "Foundations of Nursing".

Posted by: Kate | Aug 30, 2005 4:17:31 PM

Kim wrote...

When I say I don't care whether he's religious or not, it's because I'm tolerant of other's opinions, beliefs, and ideas - not because I'm apathetic to them. Because of this, I don't want to dig deeper.

Wow, Kim. If everyone had blindness like yours, we could just buy the world a Nine Inch Coke and teach it to sing.

Being tolerant REQUIRES digging deeper. Closing your eyes and ears and going "lalalalala" is what leads to ZERO understanding of the world around you, which is where hate comes from.

Oh, and by the way -- even Jesus loathed the ignorant.

Posted by: Gabriel | Aug 30, 2005 4:30:26 PM

Kim, I don't think the only reason for "digging deeper" is judgement, though. I think Trent is interesting, and the spiritual undertones of his work are interesting, and they bear consideration, not because I want to line him up on my side and I'd be disappointed if he didn't conform, but because whatever his thoughts, he does beautiful work, and I'm interested in where it comes from.

Just my .02

Posted by: Dierdre | Aug 30, 2005 4:38:22 PM

Oh, and Denise? I hope, now that you're back, that you plan on being a total bitch on WTC.

\m/ \m/,

Posted by: Dierdre | Aug 30, 2005 4:39:52 PM

Gabriel, you're quickly becoming just like the bible thumpers that I have to put up with every day living here in South Carolina. You just called me blind... how is being tolerant and open-minded being blind? Explain. And how is what I said displaying ignorance? Ignorance = "The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed." I'm far from being uneducated, unaware, and uninformed, thank you, especially concerning religion. And just because I don't see the need in analyzing what religious creeds Mister Reznor may or may not follow doesn't mean I'm ignorant or blind.

Dierdre: I was just trying to say "I don't feel like analyzing El Rezzo's spiritual modus operandi because I'm tired and that's too much thinking/brain power required after 7 hours of hell on earth at this place they call High School." in a nicer way. Maybe I'll analyze his manner of working concerning spirituality at a later date, because I do agree with you about them being interesting and bearing consideration, but I don't have the time nor the overpowering need to do so right now.

Posted by: Kim | Aug 30, 2005 4:52:40 PM

Kim, my dear, FAIR ENOUGH. High School is, indeed, hell on earth. You have all of my sympathy, and if Gabriel gives you shit, tell him I said you could tell him to SUCK IT.

Posted by: Dierdre | Aug 30, 2005 4:55:42 PM

Kim: Not wanting to analyze the impetus and motivation of the work of an artist you claim to appreciate is self-imposed blindness. Furthermore, if you cannot understand why not wanting to dig deeper makes you uneducated, I hope you have several years of that special hell called High School ahead of you, because that's some pretty basic shit.

I don't thump my Bible, I just talk about what's exciting. I don't condemn Trent for his work - I embrace it. People like you, Kim, that freak out and shut down at any discussion of religion (unless it's whatever in-vogue Wiccan/Kabbalah Faith-as-Fashion-Statement MTV tells you to swallow at any given moment) are truly ignorant and shallow minded.

Not because you agree or disagree with me, mind you - but because you discount my discussion on the topic itself because you don't wish to hear it.

I endure the LOT of you talking about doing everything from masturbating in your beds to biting the ass of Trent Reznor -- and I don't really need to hear any of that. But God Bless you all for following your hearts (and uteruses) where they lead you.

Only the court jester rejects discourse, Kim. Even Marilyn Manson knows that.

Posted by: Gabriel | Aug 30, 2005 5:05:30 PM

Gabriel... you totally and rather ironically completely misunderstood what I was trying to say. Your response to me just now was full of nothing but assumptions. As I like to say, assuming makes an ass out of you - but not me! I salute you. Keep on-a truckin'.

And, to do what Dierdre gave me permission to do:

Posted by: Kim | Aug 30, 2005 5:13:50 PM

Kim, making a big dramatic statement about how what I said was full of assumptions... whilst not providing a single fact about what you supposedly "really" think -- and thereby proving me assumptions to be false -- doesn't make a very convincing argument.

It's about as convincing as a big old "Neener-Neener", in fact.

And running so readily to Dierdre's phrasing as a shield just makes the whole thing that much worse...

Posted by: Gabriel | Aug 30, 2005 6:16:04 PM

Oh, and don't fret too much about the hell of high school. It's just the first step in a long slow spiral towards the middle. It will be followed by the hell of college, the hell of the college summer job, the hell of grad school, and then the hell of the day job.

Buckle up.

Posted by: Gabriel | Aug 30, 2005 6:19:27 PM

See, thing is Gabe... I don't like explaining myself to someone who makes a trip to Assumption Town and makes a number of assumptions about me when they've never - not once - actually had a conversation with me. You don't know one single thing about me, yet you automatically shoved me into a number of stereotypes and assumed I actually fit those stereotypes. See, I don't think that someone who would do something like that needs me to prove them wrong, because if they're willing to put me into a certain category without even knowing me first, what would me trying to correct them do? If you're so willing to put me into those stereotypes without actually knowing me first, that means you think you already know enough about me to be sure that you're correct in doing so... and knowing you, I doubt you'll change your mind about anything, even given proof that you're incorrect.

Posted by: Kim | Aug 30, 2005 6:33:07 PM

Gee, um, sorry Kim... I guess the Enchanted Bus took a detour here to Assumption Town. I thought we were going to Conversation Ville -- or at the very least Cabo San Arguments With Points.

By not providing a point, and claiming you won't give any because I Wouldn't Listen Anyway, you not only destroy any credibility you may have had, you lay bare your weak conceptual acumen and your total lack of debating skills.

You condemn me for supposedly shoving you into some sort of stereotype, while at the same time saying Gabriel, you're quickly becoming just like the bible thumpers that I have to put up with every day living here in South Carolina. Once again, hypocrisy and throwing around cliche condemntations because they flow trippingly off your oh-so-disenfranchised high school tongue will not help you make a point.

Lastly -- you are correct. I don't know anything about you, and have never had a conversation with you. This entire back-and-forth started with me encouraging you to participate in a more profound, deeper level:

Okay, Kim, you may not care... but what is your big picture evalutation of the religious themes in Trent's work?

Come on -- dig a little deeper. Apathy is so 1991.

Sorry if asking you to THINK is a big frickin' problem for you, but don't just drain your spittle cup all over the message boards -- really throw in! Talk shit, but talk shit proudly with great points! Say wonderful, lovely, horny things -- but do it in a substantive way!

We all have a voice that deserves to be heard, and there's no greater wrong then simply letting the potential of that voice die on the vine, whilst hiding your cowardice behind junior high rhetoric.

You don't get points for not participating Kim. if you really keep your opinions to yourself because people that don't know you won't understand, all you do is empower them further and perpetuate their incorrect vision of you.

"Turn the other cheek" wasn't originally the plea for passivity it has become. In the time of Christ -- and even if you don't believe, these are historical facts -- members of the upper class would be slapped in public with an open hand. The lower classes -- beggars, peasants, etc. -- would be slapped with the back of the hand. So if somebody slapped you with the back of their hand, as a beggar or peasant... turn the other cheek. So they would be forced to acknowledge you as an equal.

Whether you believe in the Lord or not, there's nothing shameful about demanding respect. Come on Kim -- bring it. We want to hear what you have to say.

Posted by: Gabriel | Aug 30, 2005 6:59:27 PM

Guess what, Gabe. I don't have anything to say to you. Big woop! Not only do you continue to try and discredit me in whatever way you can, you also bring in the age factor. I've found that a 17-year-old is sometimes twenty times more intelligent than a 45-year-old, so age group really doesn't play a factor in this... save to give you 'ammunition' for your sarcastic remarks.

And on two of your points:
I have debating skills - I just refuse to waste my energy on you. Ultimately, what you think of me or my opinions is going to have no affect on my life whatsoever.

I compared you to the lovely bible-thumpers I live with, because you did, in fact, say something that they would have said to me in the exact same situation. I don't have to know you personally to know what THEY would have said.

Posted by: Kim | Aug 30, 2005 7:16:02 PM

Wow, Kim. You totally got me. And I'm sure everyone else here is also utterly blown away, not only on how awesome your debating skills are, but how deep and nuances your arguments would be -- if only anybody knew what they were.

However, I do find it ironic, that given how little you claim to care about what I think, that you've responded back to every single post I've put here in the comments -- usually in under 12 minutes.

Yep; you've really got it all figured out, Kim.

Posted by: Gabriel | Aug 30, 2005 7:26:21 PM

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